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cowloom OP wrote

Reply to comment by twovests in Anyone ever been rightfully criticized for something, but you just weren't ready to hear it yet? by cowloom

Yeah, I get that. It's unfortunate to me that dishonest tactics can sometimes work better than honest ones in the court of public opinion. But, I suppose that's just another variable to be considered.

That said, I can't remember the last time I was criticized and unready to hear it. I think I've always been able to see that people can say useful or correct things, even if they're dicks about it or are incorrect about a lot of other things.

That's a rare gift. I wish more people thought this way.

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WRETCHEDSORCERESS wrote

Reply to Anyone ever been rightfully criticized for something, but you just weren't ready to hear it yet? by cowloom

I've definitely been in positions like that. When I was young I clung to weird conservative beliefs/catholicism in the hope it'd ingratiate me to my extremely far right family despite my being queer (I was very worried I'd be found out and disowned or something). It was something I just needed time on really. Seeing the grotesque nature of it all is in and of itself extremely convincing. Mostly it was an emotional change rather than anything super logical. Just a point when you see reactionaries as so awful you'd rather be on your own. For me this naturally happened by being a queer woman.

I think in most of these cases it's really a community based thing, I think. There's a feeling of psychological safety entailed by "membership" in reactionary groups/politics as there is any other community. But I agree wholeheartedly with the approach of being patient, giving gentle nudges, etc. Altering the concentration gradient enough that they naturally just slip out of solution.

I've been talking with my mom for years being gentle and compassionate and only pushing where it "feels" right. The rest of my family are traditionalist catholics, Q conspiracists, and at best a neocon or two. That's most of her social circle at this point. So for me a lot of it has both been gently bringing up counterarguments or validating her feelings but not her rationale. Over time she's started bringing a lot of science related questions to me to get a perspective that isn't incredibly far right. I've been able to debunk conspiracies while being like "ok yeah but the material conditions that cause these beliefs are very real; here's alternate ways to think about them" and such.

I think a big thing too has been pushing her to engage in more social groups. Getting her back into her video gaming groups and going outside to talk with friends, joining local groups and stuff. Alternate communities and support networks disentangled from reaction.

She told me she just couldn't vote for Trump in the last USAmerican election because of me. It's a small thing but to pull someone back from wholehearted commitment to reaction over time is nice. She was talking to me yesterday about how she doesn't think socialism could work in the USA specifically but 'she doesn't know enough about it.'" lol.

There's plenty she, and any reactionary say that's just infuriating. I need to vent to my friends about it sometimes. But I try to keep my frustrations to those sorts of environments. I think positive individual experiences tend to soften people's hearts, but I don't blame anyone for being unable to tolerate it. I certainly don't go trying to convince my tradcath relatives of anything. I'm not convincing my "vatican II was too woke" grandfather of anything.

There's a trap in this approach, of course. Most of the time you're going to get labelled as an exception. "One of the good ones." Not like those other feminists/commies/queers. This is one of the most frustrating things to hear. But in my experience it still helps pull them back from the most virulent stages of reactionary radicalization. I dunno. Maybe I am being too optimistic and saccharine about it.

But I always just kinda go back to how we are all alienated and suffering under this system. People say and do awful shit, but so often it's because they can't see the faces they're shooting at. Most of us have similar material interests, and are caused similar angsts by them. Speaking to those angsts is often quite doable, and I think it's a good place to meet those reactionaries that can yet be convinced. Just planting seeds of "society is evil and it sucks. maybe its for reasons that aren't WOMEN." can help. Or maybe not. It's all gooey and vague.

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missingno wrote

Reply to In Defense of Idiocracy by twovests

It's an entertaining comedy. The premise is unrealistic, but it doesn't have to be realistic to be funny.

Just smack anyone who calls it a documentary.

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flabberghaster wrote

Reply to In Defense of Idiocracy by twovests

In a way it's almost utopian. Everyone sees that their ideas are not working, they see the main character show up with better ideas, and immediately implement all his ideas when it's clear they'll fix the problems.

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flabberghaster OP wrote

Reply to comment by twovests in cw transphobia by flabberghaster

Yeah, I 100% get why the trans person in this scenario is defending their right to shit in peace. What I'm more talking about is the fact that opponents of trans people have succeeded in diverting the entire thing into that, and frustrated by the fact that we haven't been able to break out of it.

This is a post about metanarratives, not the actual physical safety of trans people which of course the most important thing. I didn't mention it because I felt it went without saying. Idk.

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twovests wrote

Reply to cw transphobia by flabberghaster

I think it's that bathrooms are a place that are still gender-segregated, and where people feel vulnerable.

The patriarchy is a real thing that makes all of society asymmetrical among women and men, but focusing on the bathrooms is (1) simpler than all of that, and (2) something you can do without acknowledging the sexism built into society.

It's one place where you regularly make yourself vulnerable and to the mercy of the public, with a nice viewing-gap in every stall for some reason.

Say you have a red-blooded American idiot, feeling that natural vulnerability you feel with your cheeks on that seat. They sit down, and Tucker Carlson's visage appears in their mind, saying, "Be afraid! A transgender will RAPE you! It can HAPPEN RIGHT NOW!" And the transphobe wipes, get up, and get ready to leave, hands shaking ready to grab your pepper spray if there's a transgender on their way out.

But if you're just Any Transgender Person using the bathroom, it's probably the number one area where you can anticipate conflict. It was probably pretty scary the first few times you dared to use the "other" restroom. If you've been trans and using restroooms for awhile, you probably had conflict in the past.

You know now you got out safe, but those conflicts didn't start with that assurance. You wouldn't know if they would escalate to violence.

And when people feel increasingly empowered and even mandated to start conflicts at the bathroom, that die rolls again and again. Maybe next time you'll get shoved, or even pepper sprayed, or assaulted even worse.

So, the transgender person sits down on the seat in the adjacent stall, and the visage of Actual Conflicts You Had appear in your mind, saying, "Be afraid! Someone might yell at you! Or worse! It can HAPPEN RIGHT NOW!" It doesn't matter that the trans person has reason to be afraid and the transphobe doesn't-- both are afraid.

The trans person wipes, flushes, and goes to wash their hands. Your cortisol is up, and even just a scornful stare is enough to bring it higher.

I've definitely left situations like that feeling, "fuck!! i have all this anxious energy!! i need to POST about it", falling for the exact thing you described. And then Fox fucking News wins again.

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twovests OP wrote

Reply to comment by cowloom in In Defense of Idiocracy by twovests

I was a child when I saw it, so, grain of salt. And it would be deeply embarrassing to base ones worldview on it.

But it's entertaining mediocre enough to give it a scrappy quality, does a lot of worldbuilding work that goes underappreciated, and is only 90 minutes!

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twovests wrote

Reply to Anyone ever been rightfully criticized for something, but you just weren't ready to hear it yet? by cowloom

I've been thinking about this. Flabberghaster already took the "I have never been rightfully criticized" joke, so I must engage seriously.

I think trying to turn the tide of a conversation on somewhere like Reddit is very different than trying to change an individual persons mind. On Reddit, if you can belittle someone well enough, you won't change their mind, but you might change a hundred onlookers minds.

But I do agree- if you want to change an individuals mind, you need to be compassionate and generous and give them outs where they can save face. If you can bring them to agree with you, it should never be embarrassing or hypocritical.

When I was a teen, I was a little MRA shit, and folks at SRS and The Fempire basically saved me. But I did like to think of myself as a perfectly logical automata(*) which helped me see through the jabs and circlejerks and whatnot.

That said, I can't remember the last time I was criticized and unready to hear it. I think I've always been able to see that people can say useful or correct things, even if they're dicks about it or are incorrect about a lot of other things.

* i am using the label from your post but i would be so embarrassed to earnestly use this label for myself. "perfectly logical" is just the floor. u gotta have good epistemics and u also gotta have a good capacity to think beyond just the tools of logic. they call me "philosophy of thot" for a reason

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