china did this in the mid-'90s as a country-wide strategy during the reform, by the "good communists"... as a side note, i understand, like on an intellectual level, that the US fucking hates communism. but man, the amount, like, of hate is unfathomable to me

this is a bland observation but it is deeply fucked up that billion dollar companies can choose to pursue a different strategy, sell off a subsidiary, etc, and in the process severely disrupt the lives of thousands of people for nothing but dollars

I know 404 media articles require (free) signup but they're a legit place owned by the writers who were laid off when vice declared bankruptcy so I'd say it's worth it

all magistrates are bastards

ya i dont give a FUCK about the magistrate

I'm gonna cancel a bunch of business deals with him due to these accusations.

I believe the AI. If the AI makes an accusation, that person is definitely guilty

good

oops i meant to post this in /f/technology but honestly vote_satan works too :P

No private property, respect my intellectual property.

no one can do communism without the permission of the Marx estate

theyll send you 15 emails a week asking you to Chip In Fifteen Dollars To Protect Democracy then as soon as you give them money they give it to white supremacists. lol

There is truly no bottom with the dems.

"It's us, or the fascists. We made sure of it."

oh yeah no i knew that was sarcastic. but there just wasnt anything in the dsa thread about jacobin or chomsky so i was like ??? where did this come from

Ah I misunderstood you. I thought you interpreted that as an unrelated and sincere suggestion from Moonside that we only listen to Chomsky and Jacobin

Well the point is to be in 2022 and not live in the past.

I'm pointing out parallels between this and a previous disastrous context and the political clikqte that lead up to it and you're just brushing it off as obsolete, like as a culture we're past that? If this is where we're at propaganda wise I think we seriously are screwed, not even saying "beware, we have seen these talking points before used against people opposed to escalating a war" is considered in bounds?

How did NATO lead into the war?

In the wiki leaks diplomatic cables, officials were warning that continuing expanding NATO past the point agreed upon in the 90s would be seen as provocation by Russia, but they've been expanding anyway despite the potential to heighten tensions.

Since when is it "the left" standpoint to just assume NATO is completely innocent and Russia are just insane batman villains acting out of a pure drive for chaos with no geostrategic goals of their own?

Obviously the invasion is bad but why should we risk a nuclear war escalating the conflict more directly?

But the DSA IC is also opposed to sanctions, which are not warfare.

Obviously they are, they're economic warfare. The goal is to inflict pain on the populace in hopes of causing a domestic crisis in the country.

I very much sympathize and agree with your point about how the USA, given its history in global conflicts, should tread very carefully in this situation. On the other hand, I kinda feel like "really? of all the conflicts you've been involved in since WWII, this is when you've suddenly decided to grow a conscience???" (and when I say 'you' here, I mean a very vague gestures in the general direction of the USA, I know that american socialists have been opposed to all these illegitimate wars.)

But I don't really buy the overall narrative here. Looking at a source of the GDP of Ukraine that I found, the only dips are after the financial crisis, and after being invaded by Russia the first time. When did this supposed economic downturn due to NATO influence start? And if Ukraine has been selling out their economy for the hope of a NATO membership, why is no one coming to its aid? Seems like a bad precedence to set if the USA is indeed pressuring countries to join.

It seems to me like american socialists are so entrenched in the idea that american imperialism is to blame in global conflicts that it has become a self-evident truth, no further analysis needed. And any war that Russia starts is obviously a proxy war against the USA. I don't think this is the case anymore, and I think that the failure to recognize this, and incorporate it in their analysis, is what makes the DSA's response so lacklustre. (On the other hand, I don't know anything and no one should listen to me.)

I fail to see how the it benefits the working class conscripts to have no weapons to defend themselves with.

One last thing: NATO membership is something used by western countries to influence domestic policy in countries like Ukraine. Since Zelenskyy came to power, there's been a transformation of Ukraine to low cost labor source for the rest of Europe, causing GDP to crater and lots of people to already leave the country before the war started. This is how NATO has been since its founding. Being anti-NATO is supporting the working class.

The background issue to Crimean annexation and the war in Donbass was the trade agreement with the European Union, not NATO membership, which became impossible as the war was an on-going territorial dispute.

Though Ukrainian corruption ought not to underestimated, the decline in GDP since the beginning of Zelenskyi's term in 2019 is mostly attributable to the on-going COVID19 pandemic.

There's a distinct pleasure in it.

Glad you're enjoying yourself Lol

Appeals to hypocrisy just can't hold candle to the light of principles.

This is making my eyes roll out of my head, I'm sorry Lol. Sorry their statement isn't exactly how you'd say it?

Anyway we've been so close to nuclear war so many times, and saved by a fluke, that I can't share you confidence that someone won't do something moronic and get everyone killed. I understand that NATO protocol is to avoid and escalation like a no fly zone but stupider shit has happened.

Couple things you seem to not understand:

• Why is someone who opposes war now, when it's difficult, any different from those who opposed war in 2002? It's not like US foreign policy is any different now than it was back then. Equally evil! Come the fuck on.
• Part of the agreement to reunify Germany was a promise to not move NATO east, this clearly wasn't kept. This is an act of aggression and NATO knows this. Putin is crazy for ignoring the billion reasons to not get into this quagmire but isn't not like there's been no poking the bear.
• Cutting off a modern state from global markets through sanctions is essentially an act of war, and results in countless preventable deaths. They're also ineffective, the US has had sanction regimes against multiple states for decades without resulting in regime changes.

Here's the core of what I think your problem is:

What sort of means of opposing powerful states trying to annex weaker ones are you for?

And I don't have a good answer because the foreign policy apparatus is so monumentally evil that we can't trust it to suddenly have the right motives. What can we do? Well if you look outside this single thread at what the DSAIC does, which is protest, fund labor unions helping people in Ukraine, and support politicians that aren't fucking crazy.

That's all. If you want to be mad at the DSA it's not really skin off my back but I don't see the usefulness here

I find the focus on NATO bizarre for two fold reasons.

First, it ignores the immediate backdrop to war in Donbass and the annexation of Crimea, namely Ukraine seeking closer connection with the EU, which didn't suit Putin, but which also distinctively isn't NATO. In fact in 2013 Russia warned that the treaty recognizing Ukrainian border would be invalidated by the signing of the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement.

Secondly, before Russian aggression against Ukraine, European NATO allies had been making their armed forces smaller rather than larger and the US has focused on other areas in favor of Eastern Europe. It is difficult to read these as provocations. The increases in military build up have happened after Russian aggression.

I do think that Bush administration had a negative impact that has been reflected in Russia, but the Trump administration sought to warm the relationship, to no avail.

I seriously feel like we are back in 2002 and if you're not baying for an invasion of Iraq, you were being told "Say hello to Saddam Hussein for me!"

Well the point is to be in 2022 and not live in the past.

I think flooding the country with guns and turn the place into another proxy war, calls from all quarters of the "Serious People" to establish a no fly zone, etc need to be spoken out against.

It's certainly no proxy war as Russia is directly involved in it and for the most part it's in fact not the Serious People who are calling for a no-fly zone. Scholars in international relationships generally oppose, as do most media outlets and NATO. Zelensky might want one, but he's not getting it and the way I read his message to Congress is that he knows this, which is why he laid out alternatives. Biden didn't support Zelensky's wishes either.

It's absolutely TRUE that NATO has no leg to stand on calling out Russian aggression with our record. We do need to condemn NATO for the role it did play in leading up to this.

How did NATO lead into the war?

None of this is to say "No one should care about the plight of the Ukrainian people." It's to say "Hold your got dang horses, let's not dive headlong into another damn war."

But the DSA IC is also opposed to sanctions, which are not warfare. What sort of means of opposing powerful states trying to annex weaker ones are you for?

I'm just finding the appeal to Jacobin and Noam Chomsky to be signs of parochial and a sign of inflexibility, inability to develop self-standing expertise and research outside of one's own echo chamber, but it is also snark just as /u/devtesla said.

There's value in being level-headed, and let's be real: the statements of the DSA international committee do not affect anything anywhere at all. Why even bother getting pressed about it

But I enjoy dunking on them. There's a distinct pleasure in it. If I were positioned better, perhaps I could have slight impact on discrediting them enough for them to be replaced, but alas, I don't hold myself to have such powers.

Fundamentally, this thread they've published isn't even about the war! It's about how the war has been exploited by moneyed interests!

I certainly didn't get the impression myself. Rather mine was that the explicit purpose of the thread was to oppose war hawks, but even then I find it untenable to conflate them with moneyed interests.That is, I ain't no vulgar Marxist on the war in Ukraine.

On the analytical side of foreign policy, I find it most regrettable that Iraq war has so much shaped leftist anti-imperialism, especially so given how enthusiastically the false explanation through greed of oil is still being endorsed as an explanation for that war. Wars are no mere repetitions, but have their own complex sets of causes.

What are you talking about???

I just find it cringe to so strongly appeal to saint Noam and The Jacobin. It reeks of parochialism concerning a conflict in Eastern Europe, which is a bad look for an International Committee, like they were just indulging in some light reading from vaguely lefty spaces and making things up as they go.