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devtesla wrote

Reply to comment by bunnies in DSA on the war in Ukraine sucks ass, regrettably by Moonside

In the specific case of Ukraine, what I'm seeing isn't necessarily that the entire country "needs guns to to defend themselves" and more that Zelenskyy wants more guns to send loads of untrained conscripts into a meat grinder. There's a difference between the government of Ukraine and the working class of the Ukraine, of which the men of the country aren't allowed to leave.

I don't have a solution to this problem but I don't think "let's not funnel weapons into this conflict" is an indefensible position, particularly when you look at everything the US has gotten involved with that go so much worse.

One last thing: NATO membership is something used by western countries to influence domestic policy in countries like Ukraine. Since Zelenskyy came to power, there's been a transformation of Ukraine to low cost labor source for the rest of Europe, causing GDP to crater and lots of people to already leave the country before the war started. This is how NATO has been since its founding. Being anti-NATO is supporting the working class.

I hope this somewhat makes the DSA position more clear? I know that this doesn't truly tackle anything that's horrifying about Russia and is a little bit US main character shit, but it's an American org so it's mostly gonna talk about America.

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Moonside OP wrote

I fail to see how the it benefits the working class conscripts to have no weapons to defend themselves with.

One last thing: NATO membership is something used by western countries to influence domestic policy in countries like Ukraine. Since Zelenskyy came to power, there's been a transformation of Ukraine to low cost labor source for the rest of Europe, causing GDP to crater and lots of people to already leave the country before the war started. This is how NATO has been since its founding. Being anti-NATO is supporting the working class.

The background issue to Crimean annexation and the war in Donbass was the trade agreement with the European Union, not NATO membership, which became impossible as the war was an on-going territorial dispute.

Though Ukrainian corruption ought not to underestimated, the decline in GDP since the beginning of Zelenskyi's term in 2019 is mostly attributable to the on-going COVID19 pandemic.

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bunnies wrote

I very much sympathize and agree with your point about how the USA, given its history in global conflicts, should tread very carefully in this situation. On the other hand, I kinda feel like "really? of all the conflicts you've been involved in since WWII, this is when you've suddenly decided to grow a conscience???" (and when I say 'you' here, I mean a very vague gestures in the general direction of the USA, I know that american socialists have been opposed to all these illegitimate wars.)

But I don't really buy the overall narrative here. Looking at a source of the GDP of Ukraine that I found, the only dips are after the financial crisis, and after being invaded by Russia the first time. When did this supposed economic downturn due to NATO influence start? And if Ukraine has been selling out their economy for the hope of a NATO membership, why is no one coming to its aid? Seems like a bad precedence to set if the USA is indeed pressuring countries to join.

It seems to me like american socialists are so entrenched in the idea that american imperialism is to blame in global conflicts that it has become a self-evident truth, no further analysis needed. And any war that Russia starts is obviously a proxy war against the USA. I don't think this is the case anymore, and I think that the failure to recognize this, and incorporate it in their analysis, is what makes the DSA's response so lacklustre. (On the other hand, I don't know anything and no one should listen to me.)

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