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flabberghaster wrote

i think docker's API is stupid; it's a bad wrapper around linux containers but there's not an actually good wrapper around it. so OCI is the best we have. and OCI is just like... docker but meant to be more open of a standard so we don't need docker specifically.

Containers are a good idea but I just don't like the tooling.

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twovests OP wrote

I'd love to hear more; I dislike that it's tied to a Company but I don't know enough to have qualms with the tooling. I'm still in the honeymoon phase with Dorker

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flabberghaster wrote

I worked with it like 8 years ago and didn't like it; that's just down to it being much less mature back then, and also me not wanting to learn it.

The OCI standard is pretty mature now and there's a lot better tooling. I should stop being a curmudgeon and learn how to use it to be honest, but i'm a grouch who likes to do things the old way.

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twovests OP wrote

Yeah, I get that. I think I'm an "old ways" person too (thank u weird people who got me into linux in 2009). Docker just feels like the "right" way for me to do the "old ways" things I've been doing.

Lots of gotchas (isolation but no security benefits at all ??? every container gets host root ???) but lots of "I-gotchya-buddy" too. (That's Docker saying "I gotchya buddy", because it loves u)

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flabberghaster wrote

I do think containers are a bandaid for having too many dependencies or a workaround for people who don't want to make their software easy to deploy. Like you shouldn't have to ship an entire inner OS with runtime and everything, it should just compile and run. Sometimes that's not feasible for valid reasons, but often it's a way to get away with having a bad release process or having your software too complicated to set up.

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twovests OP wrote

a bandaid for having too many dependencies or a workaround for people who don't want to make their software easy to deploy

I'd be curious to ask this; what could someone using a LAMP-like stack do to improve on things? I kind of thought that dependency problems were inherent to this kind of stack.

E.g. Postmill uses Postgres and PHP. Short of rewriting the PHP part in Rust or Go (which is an extreme length but would produce a mostly-static binary), or using another isolation tool like AppImage or Flatpak, I don't know any way it could be easier to deploy.

I really am asking from curiosity-- I moved to Docker because of frustration with LAMP-likes. (Shaking my fist at Nextcloud)

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flabberghaster wrote

this is assuming the only thing the server is running is linux apache mysql and php; but you'd just write your PHP code and create a package like an RPM or what have you, that deploys it to the right place, and your configs for the rest of things would also either be their own packages, or managed by some script or puppet.

It all depends i guess. I suppose it probably is much easier to manage if you just compose some images, than if you say "you gotta configure the machine" because if you can abstract away much of that stuff into containers then you're not stuck on one distro of linux, so i get why people use docker (which I call dorker btw).

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emma wrote

I dislike that it's tied to a Company

well the good news is that thanks to oci, it's tied to two companies, the other being red hat with podman

the bad news is both companies are in their enshittification stage, paywalling features and trying to sell you crappy ai shit

anyway, in theory i like podman more than docker. like the problem with docker is if you're root in a container, you're root in real life, and podman solves that with some file ownership abstraction thing or something. podman containers also run without a daemon, which is nice.

but when i've tried using podman for postmill development, it crashed, and for deploying services, i couldn't get ansible to work with it. which is weird, because ansible is also a red hat product.

so my take is that ansible will be nicer, when it's fixed.

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twovests OP wrote

the bad news is both companies are in their enshittification stage, paywalling features and trying to sell you crappy ai shit

Awh, I was really hoping this was just Docker advertising itself as good for deploying AI. Running neural networks usually means running Python, and Python package management with CUDA is so hard that (in practice) you'll just see people providing a Docker container. Some kind of "Docker AI Hub" would make sense as a product.

Looked it up, nope, it's "we'll generate your Dockerfile for you!" which is very very stupid :(

but when i've tried using podman for postmill development, it crashed, and for deploying services, i couldn't get ansible to work with it. which is weird, because ansible is also a red hat product.

Oh yeah, this was my experience too (sans ansible). I wanted to use Podman for the same reasons you listed.

Actually, according to my notes, first I tried setting up a Conduwuit server to get connected to the Matrix using Podman. So, that's two marks against it. Which is strange, since it should be the same API around the same Linux tools, where the only difference is the containers can't use root, which they shouldn't be doing anyways...

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