Submitted by cowloom in just_post

About 8 or 9 years ago, I was engaged in an internet debate with a male redditor about male privilege. He had some very ignorant takes on the subject, which I countered with my own arguments. I was actually managing to make decent progress towards changing his mind, until I decided to post his shit-takes on one of the SRS subreddits. As redditors tend to do, he looked through my post history, and found my post mocking him. He then told me that I was starting to get through to him, until he saw my post mocking him, and he then decided not to listen to me anymore. I don't remember his exact words, but the point he made was that it wasn't fair to mock someone who was attempting to engage with me in good faith.

At the time, I rejected his criticism, but now I agree with it. Back then, I was still stuck in the "ruthless struggle and merciless blows" mindset, as Mao put it. I was more concerned with "owning" reactionaries than I was with meeting them where they were, and trying to win them over. Years of practical experience have taught me quite a bit about the human condition. Now I can see that, while it may be frustrating, changing minds is a slow and tricky business. Most of us didn't start with correct ideas; our minds changed slowly, as we were exposed to alternate views. We accepted them, when we were ready to, bit by bit.

Though it may be frustrating, we must take this all-too-human variable into account. It is good to be aware of it in our own thinking, and attempt to counteract it, as far as is possible and practicable. But we cannot expect everyone else to be a perfectly logical automata. If we want to be effective in changing people's minds, we have to be patient with them; determine where they stand, and give them gentle nudges in the right direction. Everyone has to start somewhere, and belittling someone just because they aren't as far along as we want them to be generally tends to be counterproductive.

Now that I have accepted the "unity-struggle-unity" mindset, I can see that their criticism was indeed correct. My criticism to them would be that, even though I was unprincipled in my approach, my arguments were still correct, and it would've been best if they could have examined them without allowing their emotional response to override their cognition. But as I said, although we should all strive to be as close to perfectly logical automata as we can be, we can't expect the average person to be that, and we have to take that into account.


Feel free to share times when someone correctly criticized you but you weren't ready to hear it in the comments, if you feel comfortable sharing.

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flabberghaster wrote

no criticism of me has ever been valid. I'm right

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twovests wrote

I've been thinking about this. Flabberghaster already took the "I have never been rightfully criticized" joke, so I must engage seriously.

I think trying to turn the tide of a conversation on somewhere like Reddit is very different than trying to change an individual persons mind. On Reddit, if you can belittle someone well enough, you won't change their mind, but you might change a hundred onlookers minds.

But I do agree- if you want to change an individuals mind, you need to be compassionate and generous and give them outs where they can save face. If you can bring them to agree with you, it should never be embarrassing or hypocritical.

When I was a teen, I was a little MRA shit, and folks at SRS and The Fempire basically saved me. But I did like to think of myself as a perfectly logical automata(*) which helped me see through the jabs and circlejerks and whatnot.

That said, I can't remember the last time I was criticized and unready to hear it. I think I've always been able to see that people can say useful or correct things, even if they're dicks about it or are incorrect about a lot of other things.


* i am using the label from your post but i would be so embarrassed to earnestly use this label for myself. "perfectly logical" is just the floor. u gotta have good epistemics and u also gotta have a good capacity to think beyond just the tools of logic. they call me "philosophy of thot" for a reason

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cowloom OP wrote

Yeah, I get that. It's unfortunate to me that dishonest tactics can sometimes work better than honest ones in the court of public opinion. But, I suppose that's just another variable to be considered.

That said, I can't remember the last time I was criticized and unready to hear it. I think I've always been able to see that people can say useful or correct things, even if they're dicks about it or are incorrect about a lot of other things.

That's a rare gift. I wish more people thought this way.

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WRETCHEDSORCERESS wrote

I've definitely been in positions like that. When I was young I clung to weird conservative beliefs/catholicism in the hope it'd ingratiate me to my extremely far right family despite my being queer (I was very worried I'd be found out and disowned or something). It was something I just needed time on really. Seeing the grotesque nature of it all is in and of itself extremely convincing. Mostly it was an emotional change rather than anything super logical. Just a point when you see reactionaries as so awful you'd rather be on your own. For me this naturally happened by being a queer woman.

I think in most of these cases it's really a community based thing, I think. There's a feeling of psychological safety entailed by "membership" in reactionary groups/politics as there is any other community. But I agree wholeheartedly with the approach of being patient, giving gentle nudges, etc. Altering the concentration gradient enough that they naturally just slip out of solution.

I've been talking with my mom for years being gentle and compassionate and only pushing where it "feels" right. The rest of my family are traditionalist catholics, Q conspiracists, and at best a neocon or two. That's most of her social circle at this point. So for me a lot of it has both been gently bringing up counterarguments or validating her feelings but not her rationale. Over time she's started bringing a lot of science related questions to me to get a perspective that isn't incredibly far right. I've been able to debunk conspiracies while being like "ok yeah but the material conditions that cause these beliefs are very real; here's alternate ways to think about them" and such.

I think a big thing too has been pushing her to engage in more social groups. Getting her back into her video gaming groups and going outside to talk with friends, joining local groups and stuff. Alternate communities and support networks disentangled from reaction.

She told me she just couldn't vote for Trump in the last USAmerican election because of me. It's a small thing but to pull someone back from wholehearted commitment to reaction over time is nice. She was talking to me yesterday about how she doesn't think socialism could work in the USA specifically but 'she doesn't know enough about it.'" lol.

There's plenty she, and any reactionary say that's just infuriating. I need to vent to my friends about it sometimes. But I try to keep my frustrations to those sorts of environments. I think positive individual experiences tend to soften people's hearts, but I don't blame anyone for being unable to tolerate it. I certainly don't go trying to convince my tradcath relatives of anything. I'm not convincing my "vatican II was too woke" grandfather of anything.

There's a trap in this approach, of course. Most of the time you're going to get labelled as an exception. "One of the good ones." Not like those other feminists/commies/queers. This is one of the most frustrating things to hear. But in my experience it still helps pull them back from the most virulent stages of reactionary radicalization. I dunno. Maybe I am being too optimistic and saccharine about it.

But I always just kinda go back to how we are all alienated and suffering under this system. People say and do awful shit, but so often it's because they can't see the faces they're shooting at. Most of us have similar material interests, and are caused similar angsts by them. Speaking to those angsts is often quite doable, and I think it's a good place to meet those reactionaries that can yet be convinced. Just planting seeds of "society is evil and it sucks. maybe its for reasons that aren't WOMEN." can help. Or maybe not. It's all gooey and vague.

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